55 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

I can't stand the constant whining. Players complaining about premades in-game and here on the forums, yet they continue to do nothing but defend, and completely ignore anything said in faction chat to come join a large group for an attack.

Players trying to usurp folks like me whenever we're leading solo drops, constantly arguing about how our tactics are bad, second guessing movement calls, actively refusing to participate in the plan out of spite, etc. Then they finish the game under 200 damage and yet have the nerve to insult everybody else on the team that did better than them AND followed the plan.

How nearly every single game at least half the team can't even manage 800 damage over 4 freaking mechs.

How frighteningly common it is to see a player get under 100 damage that was playing the entire time and never disconnected.

I've had enough of it. All of it. Just cannot deal with this level of bad anymore, yet somehow this is all the fault of "big premades?"

Idk what PGI can do about this, but there has to be some way of requiring a basic level of competency prior to playing FW.

[DarkMetalBlade]

Just wait. It'll all be over come the Queue Split.

[Richter Kerensky]

Actually it's my toxic behavior and trolling that's ruining community faction warfare.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 24 March 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

I can't stand the constant whining. Players complaining about premades in-game and here on the forums, yet they continue to do nothing but defend, and completely ignore anything said in faction chat to come join a large group for an attack.

Players trying to usurp folks like me whenever we're leading solo drops, constantly arguing about how our tactics are bad, second guessing movement calls, actively refusing to participate in the plan out of spite, etc. Then they finish the game under 200 damage and yet have the nerve to insult everybody else on the team that did better than them AND followed the plan.

How nearly every single game at least half the team can't even manage 800 damage over 4 freaking mechs.

How frighteningly common it is to see a player get under 100 damage that was playing the entire time and never disconnected.

I've had enough of it. All of it. Just cannot deal with this level of bad anymore, yet somehow this is all the fault of "big premades?"

Idk what PGI can do about this, but there has to be some way of requiring a basic level of competency prior to playing FW.

Now you get why I'm in favor of the queue split.

I get the concern about finding matches, etc. etc. I do.

We'll work that out though. We'll end up narrowing corridors and populations will concentrate to find matches.

What will happen though I'd you'll drop in a match and all those terribad terribads who cry about IS/Clan balance and premades and cold chicken tendies and the like can go play with each other and have matches decided by which team walked out of bounds the least.

Let them go. They are the lodestone that keeps FW from being a steady, challenging environment focused on teamwork.

It then falls to us to ensure that unit queue is where the good, challenging fun is at. Steady matches and fun competition. Scrubs can play with scrubs and pretend they are not bad and never need to try and improve. Everyone else can play in a competitive environment that rewards teamwork and coordination.

Which is what FW was promised to be.

Split the queue. Let them go. Insert Frozen gifs.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Now you get why I'm in favor of the queue split.

I get the concern about finding matches, etc. etc. I do.

We'll work that out though. We'll end up narrowing corridors and populations will concentrate to find matches.

What will happen though I'd you'll drop in a match and all those terribad terribads who cry about IS/Clan balance and premades and cold chicken tendies and the like can go play with each other and have matches decided by which team walked out of bounds the least.

Let them go. They are the lodestone that keeps FW from being a steady, challenging environment focused on teamwork.

It then falls to us to ensure that unit queue is where the good, challenging fun is at. Steady matches and fun competition. Scrubs can play with scrubs and pretend they are not bad and never need to try and improve. Everyone else can play in a competitive environment that rewards teamwork and coordination.

Which is what FW was promised to be.

Split the queue. Let them go. Insert Frozen gifs.

I'm confused as to which queue split you are referring to, because I've heard about two different kinds of splits:
- Unit-tags being separated from non-tags.
- 4v4 being separated from 12v12.

Or are these splits supposed to be the same, as in non-tagged players will compete in 4v4 while tagged players compete in 12v12?

I'm not sure it will solve anything regardless. Sure, the vast majority of unitless players are probably not very good, but there's definitely talent behind many of them. Likewise, the vast majority of unit affiliated players are not very good either, and in many cases a lot of them are worse than many unitless players.

I just don't get why they can't just make FW a dedicated ranked/competitive mode.

The problem stems with not having an end-game. Player's stats aren't affected by FW, there's no rankings, there's no reason for holding planets, etc.

Most of the competitive units don't care at all about FW, contrary to popular belief here on the forums. Sure, maybe once a week SJR will run a large group for a few hours in FW, but when we're doing that we're actually LOOKING for other large units like MS, 228, and KCom to get some good fights. Mostly we do this to take a break, or earn some loyalty points, but in the end it's pointless, which is why we don't play it often. If we wanted to smash teams of pugs over and over and over again, we'd just run a 12man in public queue.

We need to stop catering to the casual population for every single game mode, worried about things like "elitism" and "inclusiveness." It's the gaming equivalent of political correctness.

Make FW a highly competitive end-game for MWO, with unit rankings, individual player stats and rankings, etc, and watch as the FW queues become more populated than ever before.

[MischiefSC]

It's not that simple though.

The unit vs pug split will drive bad players on teams to pug queue. They will only have teams to play against and will start to get stomped and as such will either buck up or muster out to scrub queue.

Good players will make a 1 player unit and go to unit queue to get to play on better teams. There will be some adjustments to create exactly what you're talking about - a competitive mode environment.

Good players who want to play with and against good players will migrate to unit queue. Bad players who don't want to have to play against good players will move to pug queue.

[Helsbane]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Now you get why I'm in favor of the queue split.

I get the concern about finding matches, etc. etc. I do.

We'll work that out though. We'll end up narrowing corridors and populations will concentrate to find matches.

What will happen though I'd you'll drop in a match and all those terribad terribads who cry about IS/Clan balance and premades and cold chicken tendies and the like can go play with each other and have matches decided by which team walked out of bounds the least.

Let them go. They are the lodestone that keeps FW from being a steady, challenging environment focused on teamwork.

It then falls to us to ensure that unit queue is where the good, challenging fun is at. Steady matches and fun competition. Scrubs can play with scrubs and pretend they are not bad and never need to try and improve. Everyone else can play in a competitive environment that rewards teamwork and coordination.

Which is what FW was promised to be.

Split the queue. Let them go. Insert Frozen gifs.

I agree with you 100%. And, while I don't have a GIF, I did find this...

[Khereg]

I agree with pretty much everything you said Aresye, but Mischief gets the bigger picture:

* The split will encourage movement of skill between queues - maybe not quick enough or complete enough, but I think it will be better than it is now

* As much as we'd like to fully separate skill vs non-skill (really a spectrum of skill instead of these extremes, but I digress), there's no way PGI spent the money they did to make FW and then wall it off from a significant chunk of the player base. That just won't be happening.

* Until the gamemode supports the population in a way that allows for skill-based matchmaking (e.g. limiting attack lanes to force more players into the same queue), any more splitting than is absolutely necessary will be a detriment to quickly finding matches and PGI won't move in that direction.

I do think the unit/non-unit split wasn't the best approach to accomplish the implied goal of skill level separation, but let's be real here: there's only so many SJR/KCom/EmP and other high skill players and groups to go around. If you want to fight your equal, it's slim pickings out there. As you noted, you guys pretty effectively roll through group queue also.

As one anecdote, I know I recently met you and rest of the SJR crew when I was doing a training session with a friendly unit doing some group queue as part of practice. We were a 10-man consisting of mostly Tier 3 and below players and we were matched against 2 6-man's of SJR for a match and got one of your groups again in the next match. I pretty much told them to laugh it off when it happened and I think we were all good sports about it, but damn... That wasn't the first time, either.

If the MM can't find you a better fit than that in group queue, of all places, well, small population + high skill is OP. You guys finding a good fight outside of arranged matches is going to be tough. FW doesn't stand a chance to get you a good match unless you coordinate a drop with your equals somewhere. That's extra hassle for you guys, but I don't see how else it could work.

[MischiefSC]

What we need to do is settle in for CW 3. Need to establish some active borders and settle in to more persistent borders. For example MS sticking to CSJ for so long *should* drive other units to settle in to CSJs borders to get steady matches. With the mechbay tours and LP rewards for being faithless and fickle wh0res we're not seeing that.

Needs to change for FW 3. Populations will stabilize given time and the removal of motivation to relocate willy-nilly.

Skill populations will do likewise. Skill gain is driven by personal motivation, caliber of who you play with and who you play against. You'll get a steady migration over time into environmental tiers as people seek the environments that suit their interests. Where we've struggled is the stability to create local ecosystems.

It'll take a couple months but in the long run that'll build a better environment. Think of it like college sports conferences - the best teams periodically reshuffle to get into matches against each other, they draw the best players, etc. It's not an overnight process but this will create a clear delineation between the terribad don'tcares and the people who want teamwoke, coordination and to work on their GIT GUD so they can get mecha-swole and join their swole brethren and sistren in the hallowed halls of Broden.

This can work. It'll be a better experience for everyone.

[Kin3ticX]

I get upset sometimes when I see how stupid people can get but you have to realize its not everyone and its okay.

In game voip for example, sometimes it works great. Sometimes it really is a bad case of 12 chiefs and 0 indians. In those cases you should just give up and remembe what you told yourself could happen before thinking you could do a small group or solo CW drop.

[Deathlike]

I don't think the split queues will solve the problems.

There's enough quality units and players that solo queue as is for FW (their numbers are small though, but they're more dedicated to CW for whatever reason) and those folks will have a field day against players that simply have "unit tags".

Ontop of that, there are still a segment of players... ideally with an unaffiliated alt account and will be trolling that non-unit queue. There is going to be some form of sanctioned seal clubbing because of it.


If people actually treated those that have done CW and play it well like a wealth of info... they would have a better time doing CW/FW. As long as people "do their own thing" willfully and intentionally, they will continue to be inconsistent and consistently complain about it in these here forums. These are the people we honestly cannot cater to. It won't work if you're unwilling to listen to success and prefer to repeat failure.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 March 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

I don't think the split queues will solve the problems.

There's enough quality units and players that solo queue as is for FW (their numbers are small though, but they're more dedicated to CW for whatever reason) and those folks will have a field day against players that simply have "unit tags".

Ontop of that, there are still a segment of players... ideally with an unaffiliated alt account and will be trolling that non-unit queue. There is going to be some form of sanctioned seal clubbing because of it.


If people actually treated those that have done CW and play it well like a wealth of info... they would have a better time doing CW/FW. As long as people "do their own thing" willfully and intentionally, they will continue to be inconsistent and consistently complain about it in these here forums. These are the people we honestly cannot cater to. It won't work if you're unwilling to listen to success and prefer to repeat failure.

Here's the problem. You're arguing based on "it would be better if people behaved like X".

They absolutely will not. People change either due to personal experiences that motivate them or when they have no choice.

People will troll pug queue sometimes the same way people make alts to troll T5. Can they? Sure. Do they? Rarely.

A queue split creates a clear delineation between players who do what is successful (teamwork, coordination, effort) and those who don't. If you don't want to play with scrubs you need to unit up and put in the associated effort. If just dropping with scrubs and playing scrub is what you want then you have a relatively safe place to do so.

If you do not split the queues than anyone who plays CW is going to be in the same pool as 12mans and KCom and such. For people who just want to scrub it up that's never going to be okay.

So the queue split creates a delineation between cares and don'tcares. If you want to get good at CW you go unit queue, if you just want 'splosions and robbits and OMFG LAZORZ and things like winning and losing don't matter to you there's scrub queue.

You are forcing people to decide what sort of player they're going to be - the sort who wants to be good at the game and work to get better (which includes teamwork and coordination as it's a team v team game) or if they're just a don'tcare.

**** the don'tcares. They can spend money, play the game with other don'tcares and go be terribad without having to get told to quit being so utterly worthless all the time.

The rest of us don't have to carry them. Sure, I'm still going to lose to a KCom 12man in my mixed unit drop but that's going to be more about them being good than my team being totally worthless.

Better experience all around. They don't want to play with us we don't want to play with them. If I get in a terrible accident and my self-respect gets surgically removed I can drop tags and go lick windows with them. If someone there finally has their balls drop and wants to succeed at big stompy robots they can make a 1 man unit and come play with the slightly bigger kids.

Win-win.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

Here's the problem. You're arguing based on "it would be better if people behaved like X".

They absolutely will not. People change either due to personal experiences that motivate them or when they have no choice.

People will troll pug queue sometimes the same way people make alts to troll T5. Can they? Sure. Do they? Rarely.

A queue split creates a clear delineation between players who do what is successful (teamwork, coordination, effort) and those who don't. If you don't want to play with scrubs you need to unit up and put in the associated effort. If just dropping with scrubs and playing scrub is what you want then you have a relatively safe place to do so.

If you do not split the queues than anyone who plays CW is going to be in the same pool as 12mans and KCom and such. For people who just want to scrub it up that's never going to be okay.

So the queue split creates a delineation between cares and don'tcares. If you want to get good at CW you go unit queue, if you just want 'splosions and robbits and OMFG LAZORZ and things like winning and losing don't matter to you there's scrub queue.

You are forcing people to decide what sort of player they're going to be - the sort who wants to be good at the game and work to get better (which includes teamwork and coordination as it's a team v team game) or if they're just a don'tcare.

**** the don'tcares. They can spend money, play the game with other don'tcares and go be terribad without having to get told to quit being so utterly worthless all the time.

The rest of us don't have to carry them. Sure, I'm still going to lose to a KCom 12man in my mixed unit drop but that's going to be more about them being good than my team being totally worthless.

Better experience all around. They don't want to play with us we don't want to play with them. If I get in a terrible accident and my self-respect gets surgically removed I can drop tags and go lick windows with them. If someone there finally has their balls drop and wants to succeed at big stompy robots they can make a 1 man unit and come play with the slightly bigger kids.

Win-win.

To be fair, I expect derps to derps, and people who don't wanna derp to not derp.

In the pub queues, it would be something if there was literally a non-ranked queue of sorts.. mostly because there will be always a segment of the population that will not play as seriously (let alone competently) like the rest of us, and that's fine. I'm just praying that kind of person wouldn't be in my drops... but it is what it is.

In CW... an implied "commitment" is made. This commitment is to spend some time doing something worthwhile that contributes to a greater cause (at least, in our minds anyways) that has a long term purpose or meaning down the role (in other words, the thing people are looking for as an endgame goal that is sorely lacking). In that sense, this requires more from the players involved... whether it is dropdeck, plan, or whatnot. Failure to even just simply cooperate is the complete antithesis of FW/CW happens to be. That in some form is primarily why we see all the arguing here.

I don't have a problem if people aren't educated with the mode... if they ask for help, this help can be provided.

I have every issue with people that doesn't want to go along with the plan... however good or bad it may be perceived. Any time a group decides to deviate from the plan, the execution of that plan dies immediately through failure.

In pub matches, you fail, you move on. In CW/FW, you fail, you have an opportunity to recover... assuming you stop trying to do your own thing. Continuing a failure only repeats itself on subsequent waves... allowing for spawn camping to propagate more effectively due to gross incompetence ontop of poor teamwork.


In order to have a successful CW/FW, the players actually have to commit to the work involved in being successful... which is as simple as "working together". Failing to do otherwise makes the job that much more difficult and you'll never/rarely see that with players that refuse to work together... under any circumstance.

[Jon Gotham]

Aresye, on 24 March 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

I can't stand the constant whining.

Unfortunately, it's all you are going to here in every single mmo you will ever play from now on. People have become extremely lazy in their gaming and socially oriented play has been on the wane for years now. Prosolo "I'll do what i want" militia are on the march, and they have VERY big mouths to shout with, coupled with a complete reality-defiance ability borne out of something preternatural.
If you even suggest teamplay or communication you might as well be asking them to set their firstborne on fire.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

To be fair, I expect derps to derps, and people who don't wanna derp to not derp.

In the pub queues, it would be something if there was literally a non-ranked queue of sorts.. mostly because there will be always a segment of the population that will not play as seriously (let alone competently) like the rest of us, and that's fine. I'm just praying that kind of person wouldn't be in my drops... but it is what it is.

In CW... an implied "commitment" is made. This commitment is to spend some time doing something worthwhile that contributes to a greater cause (at least, in our minds anyways) that has a long term purpose or meaning down the role (in other words, the thing people are looking for as an endgame goal that is sorely lacking). In that sense, this requires more from the players involved... whether it is dropdeck, plan, or whatnot. Failure to even just simply cooperate is the complete antithesis of FW/CW happens to be. That in some form is primarily why we see all the arguing here.

I don't have a problem if people aren't educated with the mode... if they ask for help, this help can be provided.

I have every issue with people that doesn't want to go along with the plan... however good or bad it may be perceived. Any time a group decides to deviate from the plan, the execution of that plan dies immediately through failure.

In pub matches, you fail, you move on. In CW/FW, you fail, you have an opportunity to recover... assuming you stop trying to do your own thing. Continuing a failure only repeats itself on subsequent waves... allowing for spawn camping to propagate more effectively due to gross incompetence ontop of poor teamwork.


In order to have a successful CW/FW, the players actually have to commit to the work involved in being successful... which is as simple as "working together". Failing to do otherwise makes the job that much more difficult and you'll never/rarely see that with players that refuse to work together... under any circumstance.

Which is the point of the queue split.

You can not force people to commit to putting in effort when they don't have to.

Don'tcares will gravitate to pug queue, everyone else to unit queue. Currently there is no choice - care/don't care you're in the same environment.

You force people to pick a door. Care or Don't Care.

That significantly impacts behavior. That's the whole point.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

Which is the point of the queue split.

You can not force people to commit to putting in effort when they don't have to.

Don'tcares will gravitate to pug queue, everyone else to unit queue. Currently there is no choice - care/don't care you're in the same environment.

You force people to pick a door. Care or Don't Care.

That significantly impacts behavior. That's the whole point.

The queue split will endorse people to complain about the non-unit queue.

Just take any random elite player and remove their tags? Do they suddenly go full derp?
Just take any random T5 player and add unit tags? Do they suddenly become incredibly good?

Trying to explain this to other people... especially in regards to the public queue (particularly solo) is an exercise in futility.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 March 2016 - 05:50 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

The queue split will endorse people to complain about the non-unit queue.

Just take any random elite player and remove their tags? Do they suddenly go full derp?
Just take any random T5 player and add unit tags? Do they suddenly become incredibly good?

Trying to explain this to other people... especially in regards to the public queue (particularly solo) is an exercise in futility.

So unit queue can get MC rewards for taking worlds. Plus you'll have a higher average skill level on each team.

Mediocre or bad players who follow orders and play with their team are better in FW than T2 or T1 players who sit on a hill and snipe/vulture kills or run do their own thing.

You're trying to treat FW play and performance like QPP play and performance. The whole point is that it doesn't work that way. The reason pug team's often suck is that they try to play like it's pug queue and get rolled by mediocre teams who play like a team.

So if you're someone with no interest in teamwork you're going to get the experience you want in tagless queue. Doesn't matter if you're a T1 pug queue player, you are going to have more fun playing how you want tagless. It'll be like QP with FW maps/modes and no matchmaker.

If you like teamwork and playing with other teamwork oriented players you play unit queue.

Make sense? It will self regulate with enough time.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

So unit queue can get MC rewards for taking worlds. Plus you'll have a higher average skill level on each team.

Mediocre or bad players who follow orders and play with their team are better in FW than T2 or T1 players who sit on a hill and snipe/vulture kills or run do their own thing.

You're trying to treat FW play and performance like QPP play and performance. The whole point is that it doesn't work that way. The reason pug team's often suck is that they try to play like it's pug queue and get rolled by mediocre teams who play like a team.

So if you're someone with no interest in teamwork you're going to get the experience you want in tagless queue. Doesn't matter if you're a T1 pug queue player, you are going to have more fun playing how you want tagless. It'll be like QP with FW maps/modes and no matchmaker.

If you like teamwork and playing with other teamwork oriented players you play unit queue.

Make sense? It will self regulate with enough time.

It's not even self-regulating right now.

I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future.

I simply don't play CW very much... even though I can group up and roflstomp rainbow pugs. It teaches me nothing.

[Davegt27]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

It's not that simple though.

The unit vs pug split will drive bad players on teams to pug queue. They will only have teams to play against and will start to get stomped and as such will either buck up or muster out to scrub queue.

Good players will make a 1 player unit and go to unit queue to get to play on better teams. There will be some adjustments to create exactly what you're talking about - a competitive mode environment.

Good players who want to play with and against good players will migrate to unit queue. Bad players who don't want to have to play against good players will move to pug queue.

To be honest I don’t think they will change anything

It was an idea that was put out but the big units cried about it so I haven’t herd anything more about the split

I could be wrong

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

It's not even self-regulating right now.

I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future.

I simply don't play CW very much... even though I can group up and roflstomp rainbow pugs. It teaches me nothing.

Then you're doing it wrong.

It doesn't self-regulate because it doesn't have the tools and rewards you for faction wh0ring. Ideally FW 3 will change that.

I get your skepticism - I do. However the premise is you force players to choose - the "I want teamwork" and "I don't want teamwork" queues.

The in Teamwork queue you give units rewards not for flipping factions but by taking and holding an area against all commers.

This promotes a more stable population over time and creates two tiers - Care/Don't Care, for player population. This lets you vent the people who just don't want to improve out of the Care tier and gives people with some drive/self-respect somewhere to metriculate to.

Sure, there's going to be skill tiers within each side. I will take getting stomped by an MS 12man when my team is still pulling together, pushing the gate and communicating over getting stomped by a mediocre 4 man plus some mediocre pugs because my team refuses to communicate or even try.